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alex-gate7london
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 Posted: 01 Apr 2008 11:45 Post subject: |
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we had our chances to get the name that we wanted in the past, and we fucked them up, we didnt take them.
when europe wanted us to accept the independece of slovenia and croatia we couldn't say no because we were afraid of going against germany (who was pushing us hardest for the independence).. but at that point we had a huge bargaining chip, we could ask for whatever we wanted. instead of mitsotakis and samaras (prime ministeR and foreign minister at the time) saying "ok, we will accept their independence but the name of skopje will be this _____" at that point we could call it what we wanted, mickey mouse club if we wanted and they would have said yes)".
instead we left brussels only with a piece of paper saying that we had a veto on the final name. a veto that the USA didnt recognise and doesnt have to accept. it is only valid to the european union countries.
well now we're fucked and after all of this bullshit i will put all my money that it will be called either macedonian republic or novamacedonia.
like fanatic said FUCK USA. but also FUCK OUR LEADERS for being pussies and idiots.
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fanatic1925
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| Posted: 01 Apr 2008 14:59 Post subject: |
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| alex-gate7london wrote: | | but also FUCK OUR LEADERS for being pussies and idiots. |
i agree.
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RedBull-7-
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| Posted: 02 Apr 2008 07:38 Post subject: |
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| fanatic1925 wrote: | | alex-gate7london wrote: | | but also FUCK OUR LEADERS for being pussies and idiots. |
i agree. |
They are responsible for everything, as i said also in other topic when we had discussion about Kosovo, they don't give a fuck about Greece/Greeks so they won't give a fuck either about Serbia and Kosovo! They are the greatest pussies and asslickers of West 
About now Macedonia, i will bring back some post of mine from some old topic, it's big but it says the 100% Truth
TITOS JEWISH-"MACEDONIA"
Marshal Tito, who by his real Jewish name is called Josif Walter Weiss, was born in Poland. He was agent of the Soviet secret service in Kabul, Teheran and Ankara up to 1935.
Before 1944 the area that later comprised of the former Yugoslavia's southern republic was not called Macedonia but was called Vardarska Banovina (Province -of the river- Vardar). It was in 1944 that (Joseph Broz) Marshal Tito, the Communist dictator ruling Yugoslavia at that time, created Yugoslavia's southern republic and called it "Socialist Republic of Macedonia". However, "Macedonia" was already the name of one of Greece's northern provinces. It is pertinent to note that Tito's Socialist Republic of Macedonia consisted of not only a small part of ancient Macedonia but also a far larger part from Slavic Yugoslavia. There is no doubt that creating this Republic in the southern region in Yugoslavia and including "Macedonia" in its name was deliberate with the main intention of laying claim to the region of ancient Macedonia of the northern province of Greece. Particularly, what Tito and his Communist allies wanted was the city of Thessaloniki with its lucrative warm water port.
It certainly is most suitable for FYROM, since the term Vardaria fits to all the area of FYROM (while the term "Macedonia" doesn't) and it was invented to identify FYROM (while the name "Macedonia" was invented to identify Greeks).
The Tito regime made full use of the capabilities of a totalitarian regime in its effort to create a new "Macedonian" ethnic group in Yugoslav-"Macedonia". This policy was centred in the following measures.
The use of the geographical term "Macedonia" as an ethnic definition.
The "mutation" of the Slavic-speaking population of the federal "Socialist Republic of Macedonia" into a population who would call themselves "Macedonians" in order to indicate a separate national identity, rather than geographical origin (as they had done until then).
The presentation of the western Bulgarian dialect -- common in Yugoslav-"Macedonia" -- as a separate "Macedonian" language. The creation of an autonomous "Macedonian" Church.
The falsification of Greek history, through the publication by the state of "scientific" books referring to the existence of a "Macedonian" ethnic group since the Middle Ages.
The projection of claims against Greek-Macedonia, which could create an expansionist mentality and rally the whole Yugoslav population, particularly Yugoslav-"Macedonians", behind the aims of the leadership.
It is interesting that a new nationality of "Macedonians" appeared in this census with a population of 809,000 while 27 years ago no such nationality existed. It is also interesting to note that according to this census no Albanians lived in Yugoslavia in 1948 while the 1921 census indicated the existence of 441,000 Albanians. This Albanian population is hidden under such terms (nationalities?) as "Macedonians", Montenegrians, and Muslims. One can thus conclude that this 1948 census not only created new imaginary nationalities, like "Macedonians", but also erased existing ones. It seems creation and eradication of nationalities was a major hobby of the late Marshall Tito.
In simple words, under Macedonian language or the Macedonian, every traditional linguist, until at least the end of the 1940s (when the standardization of the new language took place) understood the ancient Macedonian language. Very important linguists such as H. Ahrens (De Graecae linguae dialectis, Goettingen 1843), G. Chatzidakis (Zur Abstammung der alten Makedonier, Athens 1897) or O. Hoffmann (Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum, Goettingen 1906) devoted themselves to the analysis of the ancient Macedonian language as a preage of Greek. Contemporary linguists such as G. Buck (The Greek Dialects, Chicago 1955), J. Chadwick (The Prehistory of the Greek Language, Cambridge 1963), G. Babiniotis (Ancient Macedonian: The Place of Macedonian among the Greek Dialects, in : A. M. Tamis (ed.), Macedonian Hellenism, Melbourne 1990, pp. 241-250) have continued using this terminology.
The difference between Macedonian and Attic was like the difference between Low and High German. Nobody doubts that both are Germanic languages, although they differ from one another. Another good example of a multi-dialectal linguistic regime is present-day Italy. The official language of Italy is the Florentine, but common people still speak their own dialects. Two people from different areas of Italy cannot communicate if both speak their respective dialect, and yet they both speak Italian. Why should the Hellenic language be treated differently?
At that time, Greeks spoke more than 200 Hellenic dialects or languages, as the ancient Greeks used to call them. Some of the well-known dialects were Ionic, Attic, Doric, Aeolic, Cypriot, Arcadic, Aetolic, Acarnanic, Macedonian and Locric. Moreover, we know that the Romans considered the Macedonians as Hellenic speaking peoples. Livy wrote, "
The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time
" (Livy, History of Rome, b. XXXI par. XXIX). The Aetolians and Acarnanians were definitely Hellenic tribes. On another occasion Livy writes "
[General Paulus] took his official seat surrounded by the whole crowd of Macedonians
his announcement was translated into Greek and repeated by Gnaeus Octavius the praetor
. If the crowd of Macedonians were not Greek speaking, why then did the Romans need to translate Paulus' speech into Greek? (Livy, History of Rome, b. XLV, para XXIX).
The Macedonian dialect was an Aeolic dialect of the Western Greek language group (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 193). All those dialects differ from each other, but never in a way that one person could not understand the other. The Military Yugoslavian Encyclopedia of the 1974 edition (Letter M, page 219),
The historic truth is that the Slavs descended into the region not before the 6th century long after ancient Macedonia was homogenized with the rest of Greece. They don't have any historical cultural or linguistic ties with ancient Macedonia and they would be really foolish if they officially claimed that they did. There is no historic or archaeological evidence connecting them with ancient Macedonia.
In any case occupying 10% of ancient Macedonian land does not give them the right to steal the Greek-Macedonian history and culture. The Macedonian civilization was part of the ancient Greek civilization. It is part of Greece's national inheritance and it can not be used by anyone else.
There are certain facts that one needs to bear in mind.
Macedonia is a geographical region in the Balkans, transcending the international boundaries of four Balkan countries (Greece, FYROM, Bulgaria, Albania). Macedonia, however, is also a province in Greece. Moreover, a province i.e. a socialist federative republic had been named Macedonia in the former Yugoslav federation. More important, yet, from a historical perspective, the name Macedonia described a Hellenic region in antiquity, geographically identified today with the present Greek Macedonian province.
Therefore, it becomes clear that if a new independent state in this part of the Balkans assumes arbitrarily the Macedonian name, then that state would implicitly acquire full rights to represent and, indeed, to claim the whole of Macedonia, both in its historical and geographical dimensions. Everything and anything Macedonian (i.e. derived from, or pertaining to Macedonia) would be claimed as its own property. That would include the land, the people the history, the monuments, the symbols, the culture, and, indeed, the heritage of all peoples who have lived in this part of the world through the centuries.
Of the region of historic Macedonia i.e. of the Macedonian Kingdom of the 4th century B.C. approximately 90% lies within present day Greece. Of the geographic Macedonia as it has come to be known arbitrarily in our times 52 percent consists of the Greek Macedonian province, 37 percent of the FYROM, 9.5 percent of the Pirin district of Bulgaria and 1.5 percent of a strip of land in Eastern Albania.
They clearly overlooked the unquestionable fact that the inhabitants of ancient Macedonia were Greeks and spoke the Greek language. Numerous excavations in all of the ancient Macedonia area have consistently unearthed relics clearly with Greek writings, and depictions of rulers clearly designated with Greek names. In ancient Greek culture, Macedonians celebrated the same festivals with the rest of the Greeks. They took part in the Olympic games which at the time was only participated in by the Hellenes. The regions that comprised the area of Macedonia all had Greek names. Furthermore, the architecture of the palaces, temples, theaters & ancient markets are all characteristic samples of ancient Greek architecture of the time. These Hellenic structures clearly included Greek writings on them which without a shadow of a doubt prove that they were developed by the Greeks and belonged to the Greeks. The ancient Macedonians believed in the same 12 Gods of Olympus as the rest of the Hellenes. In addition, the Macedonians fought together with the rest of the Hellenes against barbarians. To the Greeks at the time, a barbarian was defined as any group of people who did not share the same developed culture. Any group of people outside of civilized Greece was defended against by all of Greece, which included Macedonia. Last but certainly not least, Macedonia was a member of the Delphic Amfictiony, an institution which was open only to Greeks.
A tribe of Greek culture and language The etymology of their name is further proof of their greek identity.Under Alexander the Great they united the Greeks and spread the greek language and greek civilisation to the known limits of the world.
In recent years, a wealth in unprecedented numbers (over 5,000) of Greek inscriptions from archaeological excavations in Greek Macedonia, have furnished concrete evidence of the Greek identity of the language of Ancient Macedonia.
Ancient Macedonians were one of more than the 230 Hellenic tribes, sub-tribes, and families of the Hellenic Nation that spoke more than 200 dialects. For more information see Herodotus, Thucydides, Titus Livius, Strabo, Nevi'im, Ketuvim, Apocrypha (Macabees I, 1-2). It was not until 1945 that their Hellenism has been challenged by the Slavs for expansionistic reasons
What's in a Name? - In a name you have identity, history, ancestry, culture, ethnicity, belonging, cohesiveness, texture, color, and many other qualities. And, it is in the Macedonian names, which those in The FYROM now want to claim as their own, where one of the greatest proofs of the GREEKNESS of Macedonia lies. Here are some of countless examples:
Macedonian = GREEK for "the tall one"
Amyntas (father of Philip) = GREEK for "defender"
Philippos (Philip) = GREEK for "one who loves horses"
Alexandros (Alexander) = GREEK for "the protector of man"
Bucephalus (Alexander's beloved horse with a large head)= GREEK for "ox-like head "
Aristotle (Alexander's teacher) = GREEK for "the best and perfect one"
Thessaloniki = GREEK for "victory over the Thessalians"
Quotes:
"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])
"Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably." (Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])
"Now, that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know." (Herod. V, 22, 1 [Loeb])
The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos"
(Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)
"But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek;
so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."
(Herod. V, 22, 2)
"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
` {John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)
"Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek"
{Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}
"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)
The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games "Men of Athens...
Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery....
If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians.
I am Alexander of Macedon."
(Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)
The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians. They have nothing in common with the ancient Macedonians. Here are some testimonies from The FYROMs officials:
Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said:
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."
If you are not the ancestors of Alexander The Great
why you want to use his symbols his culture his name
his history and claim the whole Macedonian land as your own
when you only came in Macedonian land on the 6th century (A.D.)?
The first Hellenic tribes of Dorians and Achaeoi resided in Macedonia in prehistoric times, first in Emathia near mountain Vermion and later expanded northwards and eastwards. Herodotus mentioned that around the 9th century BC the Macedonian State had the city of Aegae as its capital and that either Caranos or Perdikkas was considered the founder of the Macedonian dynasty.
According to Herodotus, the Makednoi (Macedonians) who crossed Doris and moved to Peloponnesos were later called Dorians.
The Dorians who formed the Macedonian state came in contact with the local Pelasgic (Greek tribe) population whose size was much smaller than the one residing at the sea shores and the islands of Southern Greece. It is for this reason that German Historian K. Belloch considered the Macedonians the purest Greeks of any other part of Greece (Gr. Geschichte, I, 1a, p92). The Dorians (Makednoi) of Macedonia were larger in number than those who moved southwards. This is because those who moved southwards were reduced in number either due to attrition or to settlements in the areas they visited along their movement to Southern Greece.
Such a place of permanent residence for some Makednoi(Dorians) was Doris. When these Dorians (known until then as Makednoi only) moved to Peloponnesos they became known there as Dorians (that is, the people [coming] from Doris).
The word Macedon comes from the Greek word 'makednos' first mentioned in Homer's Odyssey (Od. H106), and later by Herodotus, who called 'Makednon eunos' the various Doric tribes among which he included the Macedonians (Her. I.56, VIII.43).
The word 'Makednos' has the meaning of long, tall, and highlander. Some archaeologists believe that the Macedonians were called so because they were tall. Nowadays the meaning of 'highlander' is more prevalent. This is because Macedonians used to live early in prehistoric times in the mountains of Vermio in Greece.
The Greek words Macetia (Gk: MAKETIA) and Macetae (Gk: MAKETAI) were also used in early times to identify Macedonia and the Macedonians.
The biblical Hettieim or Kitim and Kitiaioi originate from Maketia and Maketai.
Hesiod in Theogonia, written in the middles of 8th century BC, claimed that Makednos and Magnes who used to live in the lands around mountain Olympus and Pieria were sons of Zeus and Thyias, daughter of Deukalion. This suggests that the other Greeks of that time believed that the Macedonians and Magnetes belonged to the same tribe (a Hellenic one).
Hellanikos, who lived at the time of Herodotus, considered Macedon son of Aeolos. Apollodoros considered Macedon son of Lykaon and thus grandson of the king of Argos Pelasgos and Lykaon king of Arcadians whose 50 sons became leaders of various greek tribes. On the other hand Aelianos considered Lykaon, King of Emathia and Pindos, son of Macedon.
Aeschylus, in Iketidai, had the king of Argos Pelasgos boasting that his family was ruling the lands beyond Pindos and Dodoni up to river Strymon (that is including Macedonia, the one part of modern day Greece).
Epeiros, Macedonia and Thessaly were all inhabited by Greek tribes. Epeiros, Macedonia and Thessaly had more in common than any other Greek state. All three were kingdoms [monarchies], a form of government highly disliked by the Greeks in the South [Sparta being a sole exception had two kings]. For Epeiros and Macedonia monarchy was the result of the pastoral life which forced people to live in areas surrounded by mountains and be isolated from the other Greeks.
Despite references by Thucydides that the Epeirotians were not Greek, excavations in Epeiros in the 1950s proved such claims of Thucydides to be totally untrue, since it can now be proved that Molossians, Athamanians, Chaones and Thesprotians and other people living in Epeiros [known collectively as Epeirotians] were Greek, speaking Greek and writing in Greek throughout the lifetime of Thucydides and even before that according to the archaeological evidence found so far.
Ancient Greeks (Iliad P.234) believed that Dodoni in Epeiros was the center of the Hellenic world and that the names Hellas and Hellenes were first given to the people of Epeiros also called Graecoi, the root of the English word 'Greek'. For more details we refer to Aristotle's Meteorologica 352a, 34.
Macedonians were in close contacts with both the Thessalians and the Epeirotians. Marriages among the members of the royal families of the three kingdoms were common. Olympias, mother of Alexander the Great, was a Molossian princess. Molossians believed that the founder of their tribe was Neoptolemos son of Homeric Achilles. Macedonians and Epeirotians were many times allies in wars against their common enemy, the Illyrians. Diodoros (XV 13) mentioned that in a single battle following an Illyrian invasion of Macedonia 15,000 Epeirotians were killed, a quite high number, by the Greek standards of that time.
The rule of the Macedonian king was not absolute and his 'hetairoi', as the Macedonian soldiers were called, were consulting the king sometimes quite vociferously. It was not uncommon even for Alexander the Great to have to convince his Macedonian soldiers for his future actions and to request their approval. The institution of 'hetairoi' had its roots in Homer (Iliad D 204, 532, E 663, Z 170,260) where the Myrmidon soldiers of Achilles were called so.
What ancient Greek writers write about Macedonia
Aeschylus (Iketidai, 250) and Herodotus (V 22) believed that Macedonians were Dorian Greeks. Herodotus claimed that the Macedonians (called at that time Makednoi) who moved to Peloponnesos from Doris were later called Dorians.
[The English translation of the works by Herodotus we use is due to A. D. Godley and published by Harvard University Press in the US, and Willian Heineman Ltd in Great Britain as part of the Loeb Classical Library]
In Herodotus Book I, 56 (page 53) it is mentioned
[b]"These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second an Hellenic people. The Pelasgian stock has never yet left its habitation, the Hellenic has wandered often and afar. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then in the time of Dorus son of Hellen the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus; driven by the Cadmeans from this Histiaean country it settled about Pindus in the parts called Macednian; thence again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia to Peloponnesos, where it took the name of Dorian".
Elsewhere, VIII-43 (referring to the naval battle in Salamis) Herodotus wrote
"The Peloponnesians that were with the fleet were, firstly, the Lacedaemonians, with sixteen ships, and the Corinthians with the same number of ships as at Atemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezinians five, the people of Hermione three; all these, except the people of Hermione were of Dorian and Macedonian stock, and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The people of Hermione are Dryopians, driven by Hercules and the Malians from the country now called Doris.".
Polyvios (VII 11,4, V 103,9, XVIII, XXXiV 7,13 , VII 9,1 IX 37,7) clearly stated his belief that Macedonia was greek, part of Greece, and considered Achaeans and Macedonians of the same race. The same beliefs were shared by Strabo as well as Titus Livius, to name a few other writers. It is also interesting to note that Polyvios describing the Balkan Peninsula he says that it includes Greece, Illyria and Thrace. One can thus deduce that he includes Macedonia in Greece. Had he not done so, he could have listed her separately.
In the volume "Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek history and civilization" Professor M. Sakellariou examined the words known to be unique in the Macedonian dialect of greek and related their root to the roots of words of other Greek dialects. Summarizing, many of the words that were previously considered of non-Greek origin were also in (rare) use in other parts of Greece.
There have been made various claims that the Macedonians up to some time in the 4th century BC used to speak a non-Greek language and at that time (around 340BC) were 'hellenized' by the Athenians and thus learned how to speak the attic dialect. These claims can be easily proved to be totally false even if one uses only pre-Vergina evidence.
Below we present various views on the topic.
Pre-Vergina evidence.
Fr. Sturz (in "De Dialecto Macedonica et Alexandrina", 180 concluded that the Macedonian tongue was a greek Doric dialect. August Flick, O. Hoffmann, Otto Abel, and Karl Belloch, as well as George Busolt, Fritz Geyer, Ulrich Wilcken, Helmuth Berve, Gustave Glotz, P. Roussel, P Pouquet, A Jarde, R Cohen, J. Bury, St. Casson, W. Heurtley, D. Hogarth, J. de Waele, just to name a few (non-Greek) historians and archaeologists, shared the same views.
Coins found in Macedonia have inscriptions in greek and are dated from the early 5th BC century. Such found coins are the following ones.
An octadrachm of Alexander I (circa 478BC).
Coins from the reign of Archelaos (413-399BC) and Amyntas III (393-370BC).
the ring of Sindos with the word Gk:'DVRON' (Gift) dated around 480BC.
These coins are dated well before 340BC, the time of the alleged "hellenization" of Macedonians.
Persians when first occupied Macedonia during their conquests in Europe around 510-480BC described the people living in Macedonia as "The Greeks wearing a shield-like hat" and who were non other than the Macedonians themselves. This incident occurred long before the alleged "hellenization" of Macedonians.
It is believed that the worship of the 12 Olympian Gods had started in Macedonia (as related to their place of "residence". Mountain Olympus is located in Pieria and both these names are Greek. It is claimed the magnificent view of Mt. Olympus when viewed from Macedonia, while its view from the south (Thessaly) is hindered by other mountains, inspired the Macedonians and from the other Greeks to consider this mountain the residence of their Gods.
Athenian comedies used to make fun of the idioms and the dialects of other Greeks like those of Spartans, Boeoteans and of course Macedonians. Some time in the 5th century BC a comedy entitled "Pausanias or Macedonians?" written by the Athenian Strattis was played in Athens. In various parts of this comedy a Macedonian explains how various words of the attic dialect are called in the Macedonian dialect.
It can be inferred from these references that Macedonians spoke a Doric Greek dialect. In a work of the ancient writer Athenaios, one can find samples of the work of Strattis.
An ambassador from Macedonia speaking to the Aetolians in 200BC observed that the Macedonians, the Aetolians and the Arkanians all spoke the same language.
The expressions "aneboa MAKEDONISTI", "MAKEDONISTI th fvnh" have been taken by opponents of the thesis that the Macedonians were Greeks as indicating that their language differed from Greek. One can claim that these formulation indicate a Greek dialect (cf [In Greek] "aiolizein th fvnh", "attikizei", "attikisti", "boivtiazein","dvrizein" etc).
The fact that Macedonians participated in various celebrations like the Amphictyonies and the Phocica also show the belief of themselves and the other Greeks in their origin. It is for these reasons that Professor . Papazoglou in "Historija Hellenizma", Belgrade, 1967 claimed that Macedonians were Greeks, a claim also supported by Heinz Kreissing in "Povijest Hellenizma", Zagreb, 1988.
Prof. Arnold Toynbee in "The Greeks and their Heritages", Oxford University Press, 1981 also claimed that ancient Macedonians were Greeks.
Post-Vergina evidence.
The excavations in Vergina have brought to light many tombs that buried ancient Macedonians. There are inscription on these tombs with the names of the deceased person and those of his/her progenitors. All names found so far have been Greek. Given that some of these tombs are dated from the 350BC era, one can conclude that by some time in late 5th century Macedonians have been naming their children with Greek names. And since contacts with the Athenians were rare to non-existent at that time one can safely conclude that claims that Macedonians were not Greeks and were only 'hellenized' in the 4th century BC are false.
Published information on the excavations in Vergina is mostly in the form of papers submitted to various conferences.
The views of the Bulgarian Exarchate on the population composition of Macedonia
One of the main events that helped increase the Bulgarian influence in the part of the Ottoman empire to be called "San-Stefano Macedonia" eight years later was the creation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870 which took over responsibility for the orthodox Bulgars living in the Ottoman empire.
The Greek War of Independence in the first half of the nineteenth century had its repercussions among the natives of Macedonia. Many Macedonians of joined their compatriots in Southern Greece in that War. Simultaneously a national awakening was observed among the Bulgars living at that time in Macedonia. It should be noted that the term "Bulgar" at that time was used to denote the laboring and illiterate masses living in Macedonia irrespective of ethnic origin. That awakening was mainly due to the Russian Panslavist. Russia supported the subsequent uprising of the Slavs against the Turks in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Around 1830, a scholar, Venelin explored Bulgaria and collected material but also invented other. He claimed that the Bulgars had taught the Russians the (Cyrillic) alphabet and were responsible for the conversion of Russians to Christianity. One of his followers, Rakowski claimed in 1859 that Zeus (the ancient Olympian God), Demosthenes (yes, the Athenian orator), Alexander the Great, and the Souliot hero of the Greek War of Independence Markos Botsaris were all Bulgars. He also claimed that St. Paul preached Christianity to Bulgars first and not to Greeks. Such claims quickly spread among the Bulgars living in Macedonia and beyond. Verkovic who wrote an ethnography on Macedonia and became the top Russian expert on Macedonia claimed that he had "discovered" Bulgarian (ancient) songs about Alexander the Great. Krstovic claimed that Aristotle spoke Bulgarian but wrote in Greek in order to educate the southern barbarians [Note:Krstovic seemed to believe that Aristotle, a Bulgar to him, was civilized, while the southern barbarians, i.e. the Southern Greeks such as the Athenians were not during the classic period. Such claims were made despite the obvious fact that Bulgars first appeared in the Balkans sometime in the 7th century AD]. Krstovic also considered Bulgars Constantine the Great, Cyril and Methodios, the hero of the Greek War of Independence, Karaiskakes and many other Greek and Serbian national heroes. Such ideas were believed not only in Russia (among the Bulgars they were a fact of life) but also in Western Europe, especially after the creation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1878 as it can be seen in the opinions expressed by various European politicians, scholars journalists and some scholars of that time also reflected in their belief that Macedonia was Bulgarian.
The Exarchate had the blessings of Count Ignatiev of Russia, who in 1878 would lead the Russians in their negotiations with the Turks leading to the San Stefano Treaty. The Bulgarian exarchate also became responsible for the education of the Bulgarian population and at the same time tried to strengthen the Bulgarian consciousness of those Bulgars living under the Ottoman rule. At the same time, through underground activities and the use of force, the Bulgars tried to force the Bulgar-speaking Greek population to declare themselves Bulgars and not Greeks.
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Alexandria, Egypt was already the Cultural Center of the Empire in about 280 BC. Ptolemy II assigned Aristeas, an Athenian scholar, to create the grammar of the new language, one that not only all Greeks, but all inhabitants of the Empire would be able to speak. Thus, Aristeas used the Attic dialect as basis for the new language. Aristeas and the scholars who were assisting him trimmed the language a little, eliminated the Attic idiosyncrasies and added words as well as grammatical and syntactical rules mainly from the Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic dialects. The Spartan Doric, however, was excluded from it (see Tsakonian further down). So, they standardized THE Hellenic language, called Koine or Common.
Over the years, Macedonia had several names. At first the Macedonians gave the land the name, Emathia, after their leader Emathion. It derives from the word amathos, amathoeis meaning sand or sandy. From now on, all of its names are Greek. Later it was called Maketia or Makessa and finally Makedonia (Macedonia). The latter names are derived from the Doric/Aeolic word makos, (in Attic mēkos) meaning length (see Homer, Odyssey, VII, 106), thus Makednos means long or tall, but also a highlander or mountaineer. (cf. Orestae, Hellenes).
In Opis, during the mutiny of the Macedonian Army, Alexander the Great spoke to the whole Macedonian Army addressing them in Greek (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII, 9,10). The Macedonian soldiers listened to him and they were dumbfounded by what they heard from their Commander-in-Chief. They were upset. Immediately after Alexander left for the Palace, they demanded that Alexander allow them to enter the palace so that they could talk to him.
When this was reported to Alexander, he quickly came out and saw their restrained disposition; he heard the majority of his soldiers crying and lamenting, and was moved to tears. He came forward to speak, but they remained there imploring him. One of them, named Callines, whose age and command of the Companion cavalry made him preeminent spoke as follows: Sire, what grieves the Macedonians is that you have already made some Persians your kinsmen, and the Persians are called kinsmen of Alexander and are allowed to kiss you, while not one of the Macedonians has been granted this honor (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII, 8-11).
The previous story clearly reveals that the Macedonians were speaking Greek since they could understand their leader. There were thousands of them, not just some selected few who happened to speak Greek. It would be unrealistic for Alexander the Great to speak to them in a language they supposedly did not speak. It would be impossible to believe that the Macedonian soldiers were emotionally moved to the point that all of them were lamenting after listening to a language they did not understand. There is no way for the Macedonians to have taken a crash course in Greek in 20 minutes so that they would be able to understand the speech simultaneously as Alexander was delivering it.
Furthermore, the Macedonians wore a distinctive hat, the kausia (καυσία) (Polybius IV 4,5; Eustathius 1398; Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII 22; cf. Sturz, Macedonian Dialect, 41) from the Greek word for heat that separated them from the rest of the Greeks. That is why the Persians called them yauna takabara, which meant Greeks wearing the hat. The Macedonian hat was very distinctive from the hats of the other Greeks, but the Persians did not distinguished the Macedonians, because the Macedonian speech was also Greek (Hammond, The Macedonian State p. 13 cf. J.M. Balcer, Historia, 37 [1988] 7).
On the mountainsides of the Himalayas and the Indian Caucasus and under Pakistani and Afghanistan jurisdiction lives a tribe whose people call themselves Kalash. They claim to be the descendants of Alexander the Greats soldiers who for various reasons were left behind in the depths of Asia and could not follow the Great General in his new conquests. Having no contact with the outside world for almost 23 centuries, they are quite different from any other neighboring nations. Light complexioned, and blue eyed in the midst of dark skinned neighbors, their language, even though it has been affected and influenced by the many Muslim languages of nations that surround the Kalash tribe, still incorporates vocabulary and has many elements of the ancient Greek language. They greet their visitors with "ispanta" from the Greek verb "ασπάζομαι" (greetings) and they warn them about "heman" from the ancient Greek noun "χειμών" (winter). These indigenous people still believe in the twelve Olympian gods and their architecture resembles very much the Macedonian architecture (National Herald, A School in the Tribe of Kalash by Greeks", October 11, 1996).
After the death of Alexander the Great, the situation changed in the vast empire into a new reality. Ptolemy II, Philadelphos (308-246 BC) the Pharaoh (king) of Egypt realized that the physical unification of the Greeks and the almost limitless expansion of the Empire required the standardization of the already widely used common language or Koinē. Greek was already the lingua franca of the vast Hellenistic world in all four kingdoms of the Diadochi (Alexander's Successors). It was already spoken, but neither an official alphabet nor grammar had yet been devised.
Conclusion:
Countries are products of historical events, which is why they are born and die. Nations do not. Nations are entities that take a very arduous time to evolve. The same thing is true for their appellation. Nations cannot be given birth and receive names whenever politicians wish by legislation, as it is the case of the FYROM.
The present-day Hellenic nation is the result of social, civic and linguistic amalgamation of more than 230 tribes speaking more than 200 dialects that claimed descent from Hellen, son of Deukalion. The Hellenic nation is blessed to espouse in its lengthy life great personalities such as politicians, educators, soldiers, philosophers and authors. They have all contributed in their own way to the molding of their nation. They are the result of natural maturity and a consequence of historical, social, civic, linguistic and political developments that have taken place in the last 4,000 years.
When we take into account the political conditions, religion and morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a Greek race and akin to the Dorians. Having stayed behind in the extreme north, they were unable to participate in the progressive civilization of the tribes which went further south... (Wilcken, Alexander the Great, p 22). Most historians have assessed the Macedonian state of affairs in a similar fashion. The Macedonians were a Hellenic group of tribes belonging to the Western Greek ethnic group.
N. G. L. Hammond states:
What language did these `Macedones' speak? The name itself is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means `highlanders', and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such as `Orestai' and `Oreitai', mean*ing 'mountain-men'. A reputedly earlier variant, `Maketai', has the same root, which means `high', as in the Greek adjective makednos or the noun mekos. The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod recorded [
] has a bearing on the question of Greek speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes; as we know from inscrip*tions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect. Secondly, Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins of Hellen's three sons - Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus-who were the found*ers of three dialects of Greek speech, namely Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recorded this relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh century, that the Macedones were a Greek* speaking people. The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples of their province in Europe, and one of them was the `yauna takabara', which meant `Greeks wearing the hat'. There were Greeks in Greek cityates here and there in the province, but they were of various origins and not distinguished by a common hat. However, the Macedonians wore a dis*tinctive hat, the kausia. We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and modi*fied Hesiod's genealogy by making Macedon not a cousin, but a son of Aeolus, thus bringing Macedon and his descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking family. Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus had no motive for making a false statement about the language of the Macedonians, who were then an obscure and not a powerful people. Their independent testimonies should be accepted as conclusive (N.G.L. Hammond, The Macedonian State, p.12-13).
The evidence above shows that the ancient Macedonians were one of the Hellenic groups of tribes speaking a Greek dialect and having the same institutions as the Spartans and especially the Greeks of the Western group of nations. Thus, the fallacies emanated from the FYROM and its diaspora are strongly repudiated.
Marcus A. Templar
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alex-gate7london
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| Posted: 02 Apr 2008 08:30 Post subject: |
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redbull your posts are always very interesting but can you tell us where you found the information/text?
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RedBull-7-
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| Posted: 02 Apr 2008 09:00 Post subject: |
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| alex-gate7london wrote: | | redbull your posts are always very interesting but can you tell us where you found the information/text? |
Marcus A. Templar
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alex-gate7london
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| Posted: 03 Apr 2008 10:32 Post subject: |
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NATO today refused to invite Skopje until they resolve the name iwth us.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7328276.stm
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hools
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Location: Moschato
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| Posted: 06 Apr 2008 01:55 Post subject: |
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redbull's post is really interesting and totally true.
the funny thing with skopian people is that they accept
the slavic origin but they also claim to be of macedonian origin.
slavs came to the balkans in the 6th century,therefore almost 1000
years AFTER Alexander!either we're uneducated or they dont even know
maths...dont know what to say about them,it's ridiculous!!!
as for todays politics i want to say 2 things.
first of all our politicians our idiots and traitors
and secondary i agreed totally with the recent statements
of the serbian president.
"Greeks dont accept Kosovo and stop their visas.if you dont do it
because we are friends,do it because maybe Greece is next in line"
let's see...FUCK USA...FUCK SKOPJE..FUCK ALBANIANS..
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thanasaros-7-
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Location: Kavala-Sofia,bg
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| Posted: 07 Apr 2008 20:47 Post subject: |
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hej brothers
about Fyrom,some things that have to be said
Those people are crazy,the government has some opinions,the journalists other opinions and the people are somewhere in the middle.
There is a famous fyromian journalist talking right now at greek tv about the name "Macedonia".
Like most people there,he says that they are Slavic people(finally,someone should admit it),that they have nothing to do with Alexander the Great who was 2500 years ago and that all they want from Greece is to recognize them like Northern Macedonia or something like this and the name to be depended on the geography(geografikos prosdioridmos,opoios to kserei as to grapsei).
They also want us to admit that they are nation(hahaha),that they have culture(hahaha) and their own language(hahaha) with their own letters(hahaha) and that they are not bulgarians.
So,they are really ridiculous.
At a previous post Imade I wrote about their official opinion to CNN about them,if they are Slavic people or not.
So,they want us to recognize them as nation and in the same time they have no history,no language,nothing belonging actually in them.
The situation is really stupid and they have the fucking usa supporting them and saying that they are real Macedonians and unique nation etc etc.
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Red7Salonika
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Location: north greece
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| Posted: 08 Apr 2008 13:34 Post subject: |
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all the <<macedonian>> situation is titos propaganda....they dont even know their history if they have one
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david.v
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| Posted: 09 Apr 2008 12:58 Post subject: |
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"Macedonians" dont resist they dont have history language nothing.
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Hatori Hanzo
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Posts: 1170
Location: Бол је тренутна - срамота траје довека!
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| Posted: 21 Apr 2008 11:51 Post subject: |
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Brothers, do you have song about Agia Sophia, and that is going to be ours again... Famos traditional song, i think.
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Један ЅМЅ за један оброк гладнима на Косову и Метохији 064 или 065 - 1033
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Pancevac87
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Location: 013
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| Posted: 21 Apr 2008 11:58 Post subject: |
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Нажалост, колико ја знам наша земља признаје државу под именом Република Македонија 
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Red_boy 7
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Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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Location: Σερβια
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| Posted: 21 Apr 2008 14:18 Post subject: |
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| Pancevac87 wrote: | | Нажалост, колико ја знам наша земља признаје државу под именом Република Македонија |
Тачно је,и била је једна од првих која је признала под тим именом 1996-те године... |
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