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Pedro74acab · ДЕЛИЈА јуниор Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 58

hi all!
I hope there's no bother to open this topic.
I think it's important we think and discuss about our future.
Last tragedy in greece, the big repression in many countries, the different law interpretation, the italian guy, Gabriele, killed by a police and lots of exaples.

which way we could follow?how we could fight our enemies? who are the really enemies?

its a grobari, a verona ultras, my target?
or we should think about the "system" that want we all out from the "game"?
uefa, football association, institution, media are united against the "criminals" (say the ultras).
are the ultras/hools ready to be united against these enemies?

I dont have the correct answer, just I'd like to know your opinions about.
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Лоше · Posted: 19 Jan 2008 17:47 Post subject:

First of all,we are our biggest enemies ourselves!There are so many knives,so meny deaths.First we must do something with that,then its time to consider what to do with system.System is equivalantly important problem.

I didnt suggest anything,just try to specialize to core of problem.

п дубаи · Posted: 19 Jan 2008 21:48 Post subject:

I agree with Лоше. First we should deal with the existing problems in each of our ultras scenes. Meetings and etc. to make some codes, and to make the whole thing be more about honour, and showing some dignity both in victory and defeat. Though this is a tough challenge, as we know especially in cities like Belgrade where it's sometimes hard to follow some rules or codes, I think it's not impossible, and we should give it a shot. Anyways the time will show if I am right or wrong.

When we settle down our own affairs, we should as Pedro says, recognize our own enemies. We all know that our enemies go from the little guy, the policeman who walks on the street to the big guys sitting in chairs and smoking cigars. When things like murders of Gabrielle Sandri (Lazio), Julien Quemener (PSG) and many others happen, we should stand all as one and show our madness and rage for this. If needed, let all tribunes in the country (or even more) have banners ULTRAS OF WORLD UNITE, and let all matches be abandoned by us invading the pitch if they don't want to abandon it.
But our fight is not only in stadiums it is in the media also. As much as we all hate the press, and as much as we would all like to stay away from it, that is also a big war that we are always loosing. False stories, lies, all that rubbish that we read... We should more often present the facts on TV and newspapers, present the evidence of police brutality and their constant abuse of ultras.

This all is very complex, and I know that we all sometimes feel as this is the battle that cannot be won. These thoughts go through my head when I realize that if my own mother or father don't understand me, and beileve the media everything they say, how is someone who doesn't know me at all going to understand the whole thing? Right, I don't want them to understand, but then it is also going back to the thing that we are the subculture, and we will always be a subculture, and if comes the day that we are not anymore- that will be the day that the ultras movement dies!

As I said, first our own problems, then everything else. For a start, it would be good to eliminate knives and minimize the murders in the movement because, I think will agree it is not about life and death. It's only about life! Especially us Serbs, considering that there is only about 7 million of us, should think before pulling a knife on our countrymen. And I'm glad these things are becoming solved with open attitude of our group- Delije, that judges this and calls people who pull knives CUNTS! Unfortunately situations like the one in Thessaloniki, where PAOK fans stabbed ordinary supporters who were sitting in a caffe with their children don't help things and only make them worse. When you think of this shame, of this disrespect to the whole movement and you wonder is revenge needed or is it enough that their group will be up for shame in the whole world- the answer MUST be clear in our heads. Shame is enough for them, and we should never stoop to their level! Revenge will just make things worst, every action will have re-action and these thing can go on and on and on...

I hope we all see some improvement in the future, and I'm sure that every one of us can contribute in a good way to the whole thing.

Лоше · Posted: 19 Jan 2008 22:13 Post subject:

I forgot to say one thing.One part of whole problem with knives and weapons is confidence.Probable there is a good will to not carry weapons,but there is no trust between groups,because manny times our promises havent been actualized.

Лоше · Posted: 20 Jan 2008 08:27 Post subject:

I will try to tell you about how someone in our country thinking abaout weapons.

One akt that shows abaout level of consciense at some groups is one of our graffiti witch has been destruct by paint,by Grobari.

The sign of this graffity is ONLY CUNTS STAB

On what level should someones perception be to have done a un akt like this!

Now Pedro you realize what kind of people we have in our domain.How can we make a deal,and acknowledge codex with people like this!?

alex-gate7london · ДЕЛИЈА Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 226

i agree with everyting that Лоше said, so i won't even talk about the knife situation, you said it perfectly.

in greece our biggest problem now is the law, we have a new sports law called the "Orfanos Law" which applies to crimes that take place at sporting events. it is unconstitutional, unfair, and corrupt.
if you get arrested at a match, you are not allowed bail, if you have a clean criminal record it doesn't count for anything, and the sentences are insanely big, sometimes 10 times longer than if you did the exact same crime and it wasn't related to sports.
i'll give you some examples....

at the ARIS-AEK game a few months ago an AEK fan was arrested outside the stadium for having two flairs in his pocket, he got 9 months in prison without parole so he has to do it all.

at the IRAKLIS-OLYMPIAKOS game a few weeks ago an IRAKLIS fan was arrested for using a fire extinguisher, he did not use it on someone he just emptied it, they followed him for half an hour, arrested him in the center of Thessaloníki and gave him 13 months in prison.. I'll repeat that.. 13 months for emptying a fire extinguisher... in the same game a government minister charged onto the field and attacked the referee, he got nothing, not even a slap on the wrist.

at the AEK-VILAREAL game, an AEK fan entered the pitch to put up a banner that said "war against the new sporting law" and then get out, that's all he did, they arrested him for illegaly entering the pitch and he got 15 months without parole.

this is the way they are trying to shut down the organized support and ultras movement in Greece... and this is our biggest problem next to the knives used at almost every fight now.
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ON TOUR SINCE 1992

Pedro74acab · ДЕЛИЈА јуниор Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 58

its not a question of knives, an iron bar, a glass bottle can do more than a stab.

the points are:
who we are? do we have enemies in our "crew", "world", I mean the spy, the business ultras, why I can say I'm an ultras and an other guy, a fan as me, cant say the same?
we all, in each country, have BIG problems with laws, it seems the most important problem solving for the governaments are the terrible ultras.
what can we do for change this way? do you feel as a criminal? is someone playing with these and trying to show up he's a rebel coz he's an ultras?
could we be, finally, united?
we all know and "feel" something for the "roboc.ps", but someone have ever thought about the media, the football management, the politicians?
these are the really enemies!
are you still voting these kind of bullshit (all!)?
are you still buying or reading the papers of these professional lairs?
are you still giving your money to the dirty person who manage the football?

give an answer, if is yes, for my opinion, you are not able to fight, you are just a part of the system...
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alex-gate7london · ДЕЛИЈА Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 226

[quote]we all, in each countr

Pedro74acab · ДЕЛИЈА јуниор Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 58

while we are talking, in roma, 3 catania fans stab...
maybe I wrong, the problem of the ultras are the ultras...
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Лоше · Posted: 20 Jan 2008 13:34 Post subject:

Pedro74acab · ДЕЛИЈА јуниор Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 58

I give this news in this topic, even if its only an italian news.
Napoli supporters are not allowed to follow the club away, for all the final part of this season...
this new democracy system, is not mine!
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fanatic1925 · Posted: 22 Jan 2008 10:32 Post subject:

Pedro74acab · ДЕЛИЈА јуниор Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 58

good news from italy.
good protest of pisa ultras.
they were no allowed to go to spezia (is a regional, really good derby).
then, they went the night before the match under the police station of spezia and made a protest, overall for remember in that match, after riots with police, Maurizio (u can see the banner Mau ovunque, a red one), died, several years ago.
they couldnt watch the match, but they arrived and spent the night in the rival city.
well done!

_________________
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Pedro74acab · ДЕЛИЈА јуниор Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 58

sorry, I know is not about ultras, but these protest are trying to show, even normal person can fight the "system", the world global order, the globalization...
first protest in roma, a guy against the city institutions...not only with violence u can win a battle!

second protest, in roma too.
against the world shame of "big brother" (poor Orwell, noone remember what is the really meaning of big brother...try to read his book, 1984).

a politic group, attached the "house" of this media shit, they protest for high price of normal house in italy, claiming lower prices accessible for all.
the slogan was: the "house" is not a game, social price for the house!

http://www.video.mediaset.it/video.html?sito=tgcom&data=2008/01/22&id=26882&categoria=servizio/spettacolo&from=email

http://www.repubblica.it/2006/08/gallerie/spettacoliecultura/bolla-distrutta/1.html

if the institution wants the ultras out of stadium, we could have many battles to fight.
in both case, ultras were in these protest (remember the hungarian protest too, the serbian protest against milosevic regime...).
ultras should be rebels, not only football supporters.
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николаБГ · ДЕЛИЈА сениор Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 968

I watched this protest on Spanish square on TV. Brilliant! Agree with you about the position of Ultras in modern society, we should be rebels; we should fight globalization, the system, fucked up governments and corrupt police. But as we all know, not all ultras groups have same goals, and to many, goals like this are not priority.

The number one enemy to one ultras group is another ultras group. No matter how much we try to push fair play, sometimes even to help other group actions (even rival groups) the root of ultras being, is to be number one among ultras.

It is another issue is that right way for the future. Today, the system, police, football associations are real threat to us. But still, if we all together agree (even I think that’s impossible) to together fight the same enemy, we will lose to root of our existence. To be the best among rival groups.

Conclusion…
Fight the same enemies Yes, together NO…. everybody on their own way
Keep fighting each other YES
try to forget weapons YES
Is that possible I think NO